A discussion of sorts....

[tabaqui]

Yesterday, reremouse and i posted part one of Drowning Not Waving.


pretties_4u had a comment that we decided would be better off discussed out of the community.

His comment is here, and it concernes graphic depictions of sex that occur in the part one of the story. Please read, and reply if you feel moved to do so.




However unpopular this feedback may be, and expecting the worst in the interpretation of my comments, I have reached the point where I am unavoidably compelled to address these feelings I have regarding this story.

I've been enjoying the HBO series "Deadwood" quite a lot, especially now in the gritty third season. I was over at my dad's house visiting him the other day, and knowing he's a big fan of good western type movies, I inquired as to whether or not he had given "Deadwood" a watch at all. I was a little surprised at his response. He said that he had watched the first season, and while he had enjoyed the story and the characters very much, the extreme over abuse of vulgar language had made the show overall unbearable for him. Now don't get me wrong, dad's not a saint by any measure, I've heard some profanity out of him now and then myself. It surprised me to think that the language was *too strong* for my dad to be able to overlook it and enjoy the series.

It boils down to this, I guess - we all have our limits.

I have been reading over parts of this Reremouse/Tabaqui work, Daddy!Xander, though admittadly not in it's entirety. I try to read a lot of what Tabaqui writes, some is down my alley, some isn't. I read the things I enjoy, but I mostly skim the ones I find myself not enjoying.

I am put off by the graphic, explicit, blow by blow usage of sex in this story. I'm not an old prude, and certainly not in any way a homophobe... I have seen some wonderfully written stuff that alludes to the man sex, love, relationships of all types. I'm fine with it! Usually!

There is a point, though, like my father and the vulgar language in "Deadwood" - the line is crossed and for me the pornographic content becomes overbearing, seemingly gratuitous and much like "masturbation" by the authors, exhibitionists performing their never-to-really-be-lived kinks out on all Joss's children.

This story, especially this chapter, has become just that in my eyes.

I would like to ask the author's of this story to step up and address this issue. To explain to me the need to go to such lengths, to move beyond a good "pay TV adult rating" where we get a little mild sex to season the story (ala QAF, Six Feet Under, etc...) To delve into overly detailed ponographic sessions like this.

Do you the authors feel like your story can't bear the weight, have enough "plot substance" to carry it's weight without so much excruciatingly detailed sex fic? Do you write hardcore porn into your story to appeal to the reader's lust for porn, or is it more along the lines of Mary Sue'ing without literally putting your own selves into the tale? Do you have the need to describe the size of Xander's cock, for example, or the need to tell me the reader that Xander's balls "twitched"? (Incidentally, I always get a good chuckle out of twitching cocks and balls. Women writers always over-twitch our parts.)

It was necessary for some reason to make Xander a porn industry whore in this story. Further though, it seems also necessary to detail the in close and graphic matter that this is tied to. Why? Must it be so graphic and juicy? For what reason is it so, because the point couldn't have been made clear in the reader's mind without including Xander wiping come off of his chest and face? Is it *necessary*, or is it merely self indulgence on the part of the authors?

I believe both of these writers to be GOOD writers, with the ability to write strong and sturdy tales.
I find myself most dissapointed in the extreme use of porn in the telling of this tale. It crosses the line for me, and makes the whole of it unenjoyable.
We all must tell our tales, in one way or the other - I only bothered to spend a half hour of my life to write this response in order to ask WHY. Why the need for such strong and thick detail?

Thank you for considering my query, and thanks in advance for your explanation which I hope will follow.

regards,
-Cat



Read, discuss - reply! I know my flist is intelligent and has strong opinions - let's just keep it civil!
:)



ETA:This is the link to the post on the S'cubie board. Please heed julia_here and what she says about the purpose of the board.
It's down near the very bottom. S'cubie.

Comments

[riani1.livejournal.com]

I must first confess that I didn't read all the chapter, but not from any qualms about explicit sex (I didn't get that far). More, it was the descriptions of Xander's hopeless, appalling life. The sense of being stuck. Strikes a little close to home these days.

Regarding explicit sex: The first time it appears I can cope, especially if it's integral to the plot (as it apparently is here). Repetitions, though--my only qualm is that it *does* get repetitious. There are only so many variants of in-and-out you can do. It loses eroticness and becomes choreography--which anyone can imagine is deadly dull to read but great fun to watch. When I come across such scenes in a fic I otherwise love (ie, anything by Tabaqui), I generally just skim until we get to where the plot kicks back in. If the sex is integral to the plot, though--aliens are making them do it, they have to do it just right or the ritual won't work, someone kicks in the door in the middle of it--I will read it.

I've been trying to think of when modesty/whatever would kick in re: explicitness. Unless it's intentionally degrading or coarse (someone using the crudest words possible), it doesn't ping anything on a taste/morality scale. A description of balls twitching doesn't bother me--and having observed at least one male fairly continuously for nearly 30 years, my experience is that the equipment does twitch with the right encouragement.

Then again, I don't want to tell someone they're being overly delicate or prudish. We all have lines. I have abandoned fics for their delight in hopping over my personal lines. But I didn't ask the author to "step up" to explain him/her/theirself. I simply stated, "Not to my taste for this reason," received a couple of flames from the author's devotees, and received more off-board comments saying, "Oh, I'm so glad someone said that out loud."

On the whole, I find skimming a better reaction than "I expect you to explain why you wrote that this way." It was written the way it wanted/needed to be written.

[tabaqui]

On the whole, I find skimming a better reaction than "I expect you to explain why you wrote that this way." It was written the way it wanted/needed to be written.

Exactly.

This is not 'gratuitous masturbation' - it's a portrait of a life, and yes, some of it is ugly.

[wilde-moon.livejournal.com]

Let me first say that I have not read the story. The warning was enough to tell me that it is not what I'm in the mood for right now.

Having said that, let me address the issue in general. There is definitely a point for me when I find the sex in a story detracting from it, rather than adding. When that happens I find myself skimming to the end of scene. Regardless of my like or dislike of detail, there can be intent to the detail other than titillation. Again, not speaking of this story specifically, but it could be the author's intent to show sex for what it is. The intent could be to show the gritty, dirty details, and not just the glossy fantasy. But even if that is the case, that doesn't mean I should like it.

I find myself thinking of my first introduction to Gertrude Stein. We were reading Three Lives and my professor asked me how I was liking it. I said that I wasn't really, as the repetition of words and phrases was driving me nuts. It was just too repetitive for me. She asked me, "Do you think life is less repetitive?" My response to here was, "No. I understand the technique and reasoning behind the repetition. That doesn't make it any less annoying."

So anyway, my point is that yes, sometimes sex scenes become too much. Sometimes times there's a reason, sometimes not. Sometimes I read it anyway, sometimes not. I don't think author's should gloss over everything and just to make some people happy. No matter how graphic or soft you make the sex, there is an audience for that, and you'll never make them all happy. The line of "too much" is different for everyone. Ultimately, the story is the author's and should be told the way he/she wants to tell it. The author is really the only one who needs to be happy with it. Everyone else can make the choice to read it, skim it, or skip it all together.

[tabaqui]

Ultimately, the story is the author's and should be told the way he/she wants to tell it. The author is really the only one who needs to be happy with it. Everyone else can make the choice to read it, skim it, or skip it all together.

Yes, i totally agree with that. There's a *reason* i skip some fics altogether, but i would never, ever demand that the athor 'explain' why they chose to do something unless it completely didn't do anything for the plot and it was just...confusing.

[julia-here.livejournal.com]

We sort of had this out in my reading of the earlier draft- I felt much like Cat does about the earlier version of the porn scenes in the first chapter, but I think it's essential to the work as a whole to show how he's using sex and drugs to escape the pressures of the rest of his life.

I'm very close to my own limits on this story, though, and as good as I think it is, objectively speaking, it's not going to be on the "reable" side of the line for a number of readers. I don't think that's a matter for the writers to correct, though: the story as it sits is worth having written, and is not exploitative nor gratuitous.

Has Cat seen my rec and the next post from the S'cubie Board?

Julia, who has other thoughts but they're wildly spoilerish and therefore not going here

[tabaqui]

And i totally get that - i and Rere were amazingly gratified that you beta'd this for us despite your reaction to the content, sex and otherwise.

He doesn't read the S'cubie board, so no. Can i post the link here?

[moosesal.livejournal.com]

Well, I haven't read the fic yet. But I will say that if I'm in the mood for graphic porn, then that's all I want. In a fic wtih plot and a message, I don't mind some sex. I think it can certainly bring a lot to the story at times. But at other times, it's too much. You can say more without the sex. I have read fics where I actually skip over the sex because it feels like 'here we go again, the requisite sex for the chapter'.

When the sex doesn't push the story or develop a character or reveal some sort of motivation, then is it needed? And if the fic is about characters or if it's plot driven, do the sex scenes need to be graphic?

I think it's up to the writer to decide what level of detail is right for a story, but I think many writers (and this is no judgement or opinion of you or rere, just a general statement) make it explicit because they think that's what the readers want. And maybe some readers do want that, but as writers it's important for us to be true to the story. If you think your story needs graphic sex, then you should include it.

I think the inclusion of graphic sex is no more (in)appropriate than the inclusion of graphic violence or character death. If it's what the story needs then it should be there. But when it's there just because you can? Maybe it's time to edit it out.

[wilde-moon.livejournal.com]

I think the inclusion of graphic sex is no more (in)appropriate than the inclusion of graphic violence or character death. If it's what the story needs then it should be there. But when it's there just because you can? Maybe it's time to edit it out.

I agree with that 100%. I think that sometimes authors do put in graphic sex just because they can, and there really is no reason or need for that. It's a fine line, and should be walked with caution. You really do have to take into account the type of story. Most often, you don't need the same level of detail for a character piece as a PWP. Where the story falls in that spectrum is a call the author needs to make. I think that some authors don't take the time to do that, and it can end up hurting the story.

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

Putting my two cents in on pretties_4u's comments and I guess I should start out by saying that I have not read Drowning Not Waving yet.

However, I have read some of tabaqui's fiction and I've always found the sex, be it explicit or otherwise, to be written into the story exactly where it needed to be and in the manner that the story called for.

I haven't seen anything of hers so far that screamed that the fiction was capitalizing on the porn and/or the explicit nature of the relationship, and abandoning the plot-line of story itself. If anything else, the exact opposite is true.

It's true we all have our limits. We have all at one point ceased watching a series, reading a story or listening to music when it became repetitious or squicked us in some manner.

That does not mean that the story has no merit for others, even if we ourselves have found we don't like it.

[tabaqui]

Thank you. :)

It's true we all have our limits. We have all at one point ceased watching a series, reading a story or listening to music when it became repetitious or squicked us in some manner.

I've done that myself. Rere and I were both very conscious of how sex was used in this story, and the 'sordid details' are something that adds to the effect and overall tone, rather than something that's just there for giggles or titilation.

[samifidler.livejournal.com]

Maybe I'm missing the point, but the descriptions of what Xander did to earn a living had very little to do with erotica and everything to do with the picture that developed in my mind of how totally trapped he was in a life where every part of his existence had been stripped of its joy, magic and pleasures. Home, family, the physical pleasures like enjoying a meal, or a partner in sexual pleasure-he has them all, but they are the stuff of nightmares, not gratification. "Drowning Not Waving" is a brilliant title as far as I can see, having only read the first part, because at a casual glance, safe on the shore, someone waving a greeting and someone frantically signaling that they need help can to a casual, disinterested observer look remarkably the same. There are some fics where graphic sexual descriptions are hot and appropriate , some where they are written in such a formulaic manner that they bore me, some where they just seem gratuitous. I don't think the descriptions in this fic fall into any of those catagories- Ithinkk if anything they describe anti-sex. JMHO

Sami

[savoytruffle.livejournal.com]

This describes my feelings on the subject exactly.

I don't think the sex in this chapter is intended to be sexy at all. It's not for the readers' pleasure, it's for their horror. That's the point and that's what makes it necessary, not gratuitous.

And that's why their are darkness warnings on this one.

[silverjaime.livejournal.com]

I've been reading slash fic for years now and the amount of porn in every story varies cinsiderably. Sometimes it is repetitive - in which case I usually skim or stop reading. Sometimes it is erotic - and if I'm in the mood I lap that up! Sometimes it is horrible, deadening and in this story, descriptive of an industry which I can see cheapens sex and the people who are involved in it. The porn industry, as I've been learning, is just as miserable and hopeless as in this fic.
That, I thought, was the point. I've never read a fic of Tabaqui's where the sex was inappropriate or gratuitous, and if I ever did - I certainly wouldn't ask her to expain it! We readers vote with our feet - if you don't like the content - move along - plenty of other fics out there which may be more to your taste! Don't ask the authors to explain their reasoning or to desist because it annoys you!

Just my humble opinion you understand - but I feel very strongly in the idea of free speech, and the authors' rights to create and deliver a story true to them. It's up to every reader to decide if it's something we want to read or not.....

[tabaqui]

That, I thought, was the point. I've never read a fic of Tabaqui's where the sex was inappropriate or gratuitous...

Thank you! I'm happy to read that, as I really do *try* to make any sex written be *useful* and appropriate to the story.

And I know Rere feels exactly the same way, so it's good that what we're trying to do is clear.

[sweptawaybayou.livejournal.com]

Wonderful question and what a great discussion!

First, I haven't read the story yet as I just got home. So I can't comment on that specifically. Yet.

Second, I get the Deadwood thing. Very much. My 17 yr old started watching it with me this spring as I was hurrying to catch up before Season 3 started. She watched all of season one and half of season two, before she told me that she had to stop. For the same reason as your father, Cat. The language was too much for her and she had become afraid that hearing 'motherfucker' and 'cocksucker' every other sentence would cause her to become to blase about those words. She didn't want to slip in an inapproipriate situation.

And this coming from a girl that has lived with me for 17 years.

So I understand the 'everyone has their limits' and it is a good thing to be able to recognize that fact.

What I don't understand is why you would question the authors' need or want or reasons for taking this story in the direction they have.

Would it be better if all of Tabaqui's and Rere's stories were the same? Different plot, perhaps, but the same? Isn't it just as much our right as writers to expand on an idea as it is yours to not read and/or enjoy it?

Graphic sex can be integral to a plot, or it can be just for the hell of it. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I gloss over an intimate scene in one story and draw blow-by-blow (no pun intended *la*) pictures in the next. It all has to do with how the idea moves me, with where the story takes me, with how the characters talk to me.

It has nothing to do with wanting to perform(ing their) my never-to-really-be-lived kinks out on all Joss's children. With writers like us, people who do this for free and to let loose the demons that fill our brains, put pen to paper the voices that never stop talking ... it has nothing to do with Joss' creations. If not his, then it would be someone else's or our own, even.

Heh.

Sometimes a story takes us to a dark place, sometimes it takes us to heaven. But most of the time, for most of us, the story simply takes us and we follow along willingly, happily.

Writing explicit sex in great detail and doing it well is something that not many people can do. And like some of the people above me have said, if it's not what they want to read, then they either skim or skip or don't read it. But if it's what the authors' feel is necessary for their story, then who are we to question that?

:)

*smooch*
**loves**

[tabaqui]

Sometimes a story takes us to a dark place, sometimes it takes us to heaven. But most of the time, for most of us, the story simply takes us and we follow along willingly, happily.

Oh, fuck yes. I can't remember a time when i wasn't making up stories, either writing them down or making them in my head. And a lot of them were about people in books on movies but just as many were my own people, dancing to their *own* tune.

'Voices that never stop' for real.

I don't mind questioning, but i do mind the idea that what i might be doing is seemingly gratuitous and much like "masturbation" by the authors, exhibitionists performing their never-to-really-be-lived kinks out on all Joss's children.

So, so not what this is about.

[katekat]

It seems to me that his objection isn't to your story per se, but is instead asking a larger general question that, frankly, I don't think you should be held accountable to answer - or, if anyone is required to respond to the question, the answer should be so self evident that it only requires the simplest of answers: Because we, the authors, felt like writing it.

First it seems his criticism is that you're over using sex, that you don't *need* the descriptions. But if the sex does exactly what you want it to do, if the descriptions get your point across, then I don't really think it's over use. It may make people uncomfortable - but I think that's what you were going for! So why on earth would someone have a problem with the fact that you achieved a certain effect? That's your choice as the authors, not his choice as the reader. His choice is to read or not read.

What concerns me even more is that it seems he objects to you writing "beyond a good "pay TV adult rating"" To me, one of the most liberating aspects of fic is that you CAN explore beyond any TV rating. That you can indulge, nay, glory in kinks and fantasies and explicit details until they drip off the page. It's where things that aren't "supposed" to be talked about CAN be talked about. So why wouldn't you dive in? Why wouldn't you lovingly describe every twitch and moan and breath and touch of skin? Even the uncomfortable, the forbidden, the painful?

And if you want a truly intellectualized version of this kind of viewpoint (to perhaps direct this person to think about these questions in an entierly different way) check out this little article from MIT's Communications Department about how fanfic/cyberspace is a forum for women's exploration...

http://web.mit.edu/comm-forum/papers/cumberland.html

Even though it's about entirely different fandoms, ones I'd never heard of, it brings up the right questions, and proposes some good theories to answer them.

[tabaqui]

I have to agree with the idea that fanfic - that *writing* in general - is a place where the author and the reader both can explore ideas and avenues that would be difficult to find in the 'real world'. Especially the world of television which seems to glory in the exploitation of women and yet tries to supress and control them at the same time.

I want to write to put my ideas out there - whether it be my ideas about homosexuality, relationships, souls, good vs. evil or my ideas about managing grief, isolation, or fear.

I have to admit that the idea the article proposes, that women write fic - especially slash fic - as a way of experienceing things they can't or won't make happen in real life a bit... Off.

I know for a *fact* i neither want to be *or* do Spike, Xander, James Marsters or Nicholas Brendon. What i *do* want to do is find and explore all the little hidden things about those characters. Things the writers and actors only hinted at.

And sometimes...it's way beyond NC-17.

eep - ok, more thoughts

[katekat]

Also, I've re-read fics at times that, when I was in one mood felt repetative and in another hit every kink of mine dead on. I think part of the acceptance of any story depends on the reader as much as the writer.

That being said, I've NEVER found your fics, or reremouse's, or anything you've done together, to be in the LEAST gratuitous or needlessly descriptive. While there are others that this question of repetativeness might apply to quite well, you two writers I would never put in that category.

Re: eep - ok, more thoughts

[tabaqui]

Thank you very much. It's good to know that.
:)

[angstpuppy.livejournal.com]

All right, big deep breath. Here I go.

Ooh, warning: Spoilers in these comments.

I read the first chapter in the middle of the night, just before I went to bed. I stared at the warnings for a bit, wondering if I really wanted to read, then plunged in (I'll admit that the end of the note "and almost everyone lives happily ever after" help sway me to the "read it" side, that and the fact that it's by two of my most favorite authors ;-))

The tale is dark, and dirty and gritty and very, very realistic, something I'll admit that I don't often go for in the reading (or writing, when I do manage to write) of my fanfiction. If I want realistic I'll just reminisce about some of my 'bad old days' ya know?

I've known way too many people in my life who have used sex as a release, as a way to leave themselves behind if only for a few moments. It is said that that is what Xander is doing here, and hell he even gets paid for it. But the truth of that kind of sex is also shown, It. Doesn't. Work. And the wiping of the cum off of himself in that scene is I think a wonderful metaphor for what that does to a person, it leaves them feeling soiled, dirty and with a film that just won't come off with simple soap and water. In other words (lord I'm windy today) I think it was wonderfully and appropriately written.

The other parts of this story that I found frighteningly realistic were when Xander told his son he hated him, and when he thinks about throwing him off of the cliff. And him clutching the carseat to him as he walked down the hill as if his arms would do that on their own if not watched carefully. You've brought one of the deep dark secrets of parenthood out into the cold light of day. I've been there, any parent who has had to take care of a child on their own, has been there. And you think you are evil, and horrible and because this is something you are NOT going to discuss with anyone else, you think you are the only one. The bravery of writing those words in this story astounds me.

I will continue to read the story, because in reading the first chapter I have so many questions (where the hell is this kids mother???) that I can't not read it. To say I'm enjoying it would be...wrong. This is not an enjoyable 'verse, at least not right now. To say it's incredible writing, and being written as it "needs" to be written, would be spot on.

[reremouse.livejournal.com]

dead on babe. sex isn't always good and babies don't always make everything better and the emotions can be so muddled and scary when you're a desperate and lonely single parent. this is a horror story - ugly details, scary thoughts, desperate measures, self loathing and everything.

[rainkatt.livejournal.com]

OK, trying again. I did read the chapter this morning as I was leaving for work, and what I wanted to say about it would have taken much more time than I had right then, so I plonked it on a tab to come back to when I get home. Then I skimmed my flist this morning after I got to work, and saw this, which interested me a lot, because the very thing I thought when I read the chapter was that this was one of the grittiest fics I'd ever read, but ugly as the situation it portrays, it doesn't have any wasted lines or gratuitous anything. I had barely noticed the sex as sex--it was part of Xander's ugly little life and a great example of what he'd been brought to. It never once dawned on me that I was supposed to be enjoying it, and it's not the sort of scene I'd read to get off. All I felt was Xander's hopelessness. (His need to get off during--or soon after--the taping reminded me of what sometimes happens with rape victims or battered spouses, wives, usually, who will have orgasms, simply because the human body does that. It's more like scratching an itch that has nothing to do with pleasure.)

Having said that, there are times in a fic for seriously porny--and titillating--scenes, and when they happen, I'm thrilled. There are also times when it would be just as well to leave the details out. There's a long fic I read once (by no one here) where I stopped reading the sex scenes completely, because I had ceased to care. If you're doing that, it's an issue. But I don't see that here at all. What I see is a dirty, gritty, hopeless life, skillfully portrayed by you and rere. (And so far, I'm with you on this one. I can handle raw grittiness, but I leave if Xander turns into a vampire. I figure that's your choice, and it's not my business to berate you for a writing choice that doesn't make me happy. It's not that I ever think you made a bad choice for a story, it's just one I don't want to read. (And you and I don't really agree about eternal physical life, I think.) But that said, at this point, I just want Xander to find something resembling hope, and I'm willing to get some mud on my feet to do it. ;-))

I will say that of the fics I've read from both/either of you, I haven't ever found that "insert sex scene here" mentality. At all.

I also agree with someone upthread who said that it depends on mood--I may not be able to handle anything more than smoochies today, but tomorrow, I want something down and dirty and kinky and raw.

(And I *am* an old woman.) ;-)

Hope I was coherent this time, and hope that this bloody thing posts, without an error message.

[tabaqui]

Yay, you got to post!
:)
And a good post, too.

Yes - dirty, gritty, hopeless and *ugly* and the details just make it more so.

[greenstone-j.livejournal.com]

Ok, so I saw the word intelligient and came in and had a read ('cause I want to know what intelligient is LOL)...and went and read the chapter....but not the stuff on the s'cubie board...

Now I will start this by saying I like dark!fic - have done ever since I was at school and read 'Crime and Punishment' - I love it because there are dark things out there, they are happening to fictional characters, and invariably it is a story of triumhant success....because in fic we can get away with it. Gives us hope for those in bad places, and also it is a make-believe 'verse where good can win - because it is never that clear cut in RL. My overall favourite fics are the ones that focus on the characters, pull them apart, put them under a microscope and then put them together....and good dark!fics do this.

Now, after firmly establishing where I come from, the story in question....I did not find it too graphic...I thought it was painted in the necessary harsh light. When Xander comes, it's not the pleasure of the act that you focus on, it's the wiping off of stomach...almost like it was going to the toliet or something equally mundane (actaully it reminded me of Xander changing the nappy and the over fill trash can - so similar in just being an action). That fits in with exactly where this Xander is in his life. Let's face it, Xander's life sucks. He's worn-out, he's looking after a baby and he's reduced to the role of caretaker - he's too tired to do the fun stuff that people always associate with babies and can turn childcare from the biggest burden to a something people chose to do - he's depressed, he's sturggling finanically, he's alone. All of that came through beautifully in the writing, because when you are that down, babies hate you and wake you up on and poop at the worst times, and it's on purpose (I know that doesn't make sense to people with their happy on - but it can feel like that).

Now, the comment. See, I get where he's coming from, and I fully acknowledge it is a personal preference. I have read stories brimming with details...and some are off-putting and you race to the plot or turn the screen off...but others can be so well written that you cling to every detail and, yes, can be porn-ish and hot. I read a book about sex and writing and it talked to several authors about their experiences writing sex scenes, so I may have overthought this, but using sex in a story can be powerful, if it used to sell the book, it shows, if it used to advance to plot, it grabs you in a different way. And writing/practising writing sex scenes, I found, can make it easier to be able expose other aspects of characters (ie, by the time you get over your embarrassment with the whole slot A, tab B thing, it actually makes it easier to write a character warts and all and dive into psyches....still not sure if I'm making sense here).

Now there are some writer's whose sexs scene I read with the scroll button on, and others that I just bask in their glory. To be honest, it isn't the details that make me do it, it's the writing. And then there are some writers who write the same story over and over again, just with different places or times, but the same basic theme...eventually, no matter how good the technique, I stop reading because, well, bored now.

So too sum up, he has a a point, but personally, didn't think it applied for that chapter *shrugs* yeah, a lot of words to get there, right? But big ups for trying a challenging story which I think is working well

[tabaqui]

Firstly, thank you.
Secondly - yes, i have read the gratuitous sex/violence/torture/abuse scenes in fic and they pretty much make me skip it, if the story itself is good enough, or hit the back button.

I'm glad that you can see that this was *not* a scene like that, inserted for titillation and no other reason.

[tesla321.livejournal.com]

Well, as you know, I said I skimmed it, up front. But it never entered my head to question you. You're showing the porn industry, so, there would be....porniness...and there was a warning about explicit sex, too. Sheesh. It's not like you broke into my apartment, trapped me in my kitchen and made me listen to it. (And no, that's not a fantasy.) I've skimmed explicit sex scenes before and I'll do it again, but that's my choice innit? Makes me want to write nastydirtyness.

[tabaqui]

Totally your choice! Always your choice.
:)

And...um...i could *come* to your kitchen. If you like.
*la*

[http://users.livejournal.com/_beetle_/]

Hmm.

Having read it myself--and I'm having the insane lurve of post-partum!Xan and his suicidal tendencies--I guess I can see where the description of Xander's work, could be considered explicit.

But it doesn't bother me because it's in context. It's a part of Xander's life, how he lives, what and who he does. At least as far as us getting an idea of a day-in-the-life, I think it's necessary.

Necessary for every part thereafter? Prolly not. But if it was there, I wouldn't complain. You and Rere rock my socks as writers. If you're holding my hand, I'll follow you anywhere.

(And don't let this get around, but--I don't read gratuitous pr0n for fun. I'm an emo-chick, angst all the way. Pr0n without angst is like a night without stars. Yet angst for angst's sake is just fine.

So it's obvious which side my bread's buttered on. If I can handle explicit pr0n, anyone can.)

The thing is, if ever you'se guys should write some pr0n that isn't my cup of tea, I'll skim through it, and touch base during the afterglow =D

Also, having seen a bit of "Deadwood", I think that the swearing is in context. I think real olden-days cowboys probably said things that'd make a modern Marine blush. It was their way. Just as the writers of "Deadwood" are being true to their vision, you guys were being true to yours. Leaving out Xander's work, and his thoughts and feelings about it would be leaving out a chunk of him.

And it kinda helps set the tone of the piece. Xander's so not in a good head-space, right now. Each glimpse of him we get only illustrates how much a different set of circumstances can change a person. Canon!Xan would never do something like that for money. Maybe for fun, if he'd just come out, already. . . .

*clears throat*

If it's integral to character development and/or story, it belongs. If it's honest, it belongs. If it makes somebody have to take a time-out in their bunk, it belongs. If tabaqui and reremouse think it belongs, it belongs.

So . . . can I get a sneak peak at the next installment?
*bg*

[tabaqui]

Heeeee!
Because clearly we rule you.
*cough*

I thought it was necessary, too, because his life is a long and nasty round of humiliation and exploitation and unhappiness and what happens later - and why he's in this mind-set - wouldn't work or seem 'real' if we skimmed the nastiness of *all* of his life wasn't shown at least once.

*you roxor too, bay-bee*

[djinanna.livejournal.com]

Huh. Well, everybody has their own reactions to stories. It feels foreign to me, asking a writer to justify why they wrote a story the way they did, though.

Well, unless one's doing beta, in which case it's actually one's job to ask that, though not so much in the "explain/justify to me" sense as the "I just want to be sure you-the-writer know why you're going in this direction and what it's implications are", the whole "giving a different perspective to the writer(s) who's been living inside the story for however long.

But I think I agree with the poster (somewhere here) who said that they didn't even register the sex acts as sex, at least in the the fun way, so much as just being the gritty details of Xan's everyday life.

I wasn't repulsed by Xan's actions and reactions, though it broke my heart to see him so down and feeling out of options. I also wasn't titillated by the sex. It was very ... almost clinical, in a way, just matter-of-fact, gritty details (as I said above) of everyday life. Nothing to be (no pun intended) excited about, really.

I didn't feel like you were writing OMG Smutty Pr0n OMG Yay!. You were giving us a glimpse, painting a picture, of Xan's life.

Now, I'm not a big fan of the PWP or the OMG Smutty Pr0n OMG Yay!-focused story. Often, I skim the sex scenes. And on the other hand, some of my favorite, oft-read sex scenes/smutty stories are very hardcore. For example, I will admit to a fisting kink.)

But this story, so far, is not a smutty pr0n story. It *is* a story about, at least in part, the smutty pr0n *industry*. But that's a totally different thing.

Um, huh. I'm seriously in babble mode this evening, aren't I? So, time to end this...

[tabaqui]

Yes, exactly. Not smuttypr0nyay! at all. So far from that, in fact.

I don't have a problem with a reader questioning the author - or me, heh - about something, but not when it's done in a...confrontational 'oh, this is so awful!' way. I don't expect everything i write to be crystal clear so questions are *good*.

Thanks for commenting!

[twilightofmagic.livejournal.com]

Okay, this is how shallow I am. It has never occurred to me that sex could be too explicit in slash fic. I thought that's what it was all about. Basically, it all boils down to how well written it is, whether I want to read or not. If it's badly written, then it's too much, because of the inadequate writing, not because of the explicit sex <- Not a quote there, but emphasis. Until this discussion, I thought of slash as fanfiction whose raison d'etre (just quoting Spike there, is all) was sex between men. And it being mostly women writing it, the writers rang variations on the theme, B/D/S/M, H/C, mpreg, angst, darkfic, tentacle!fic, fairy!fic, PWP, and/or stories with elaborate plots and pyschological explorations. It was all a carnival of playing in the erotic mode. But sex was at the centre. I see it much along the same lines as katekat1010 suggests.

Drowning not Waving, it seems to me, just takes the genre in a more realistic direction--much more realistic and gritty in its style than is usual in slash. And it being Tabaqui, it's thick description, the thickest you'll find in fanfiction. No one I know layers in more intense sense detail than she does. I'm sorry to seem to be overlooking the fact that it's a collaboration and reremouse co-authored, it's just that I am more familiar with tabaqui's style.

So, this fic has sex/porn at its centre and the porn is where the sense of despair and futility Xander is experiencing is played out. It's a perfect metaphor for his psychological state and symbol of what his life has become.

Just to end on more triviality. I did ping to the sex that was described. It was written from Xander's point of view and he was into it, needed it, but in this story there are reasons why this kind of sex is what he does. The story's subject, style and characterization are all of a piece. The sex is not gratuitous, but precisely integrated to the writers intentions in the story.

Just one last thing and back to katekat's point. I think the writers we admire, the best writers, take what is essentially women authored erotica and elaborate that central energy into something much more complex through rich characterization, imaginative alternate universes, psychological examinations, humour, wit and sheer love of wordplay and story telling. I love the fact that the field of imaginative play is so diverse.

Off to wibble at my nails because the story I'm currently writing is completely concerned with sex.

[tabaqui]

It's a perfect metaphor for his psychological state and symbol of what his life has become.

Absolutely. Exactly. :)
Man, good comment!

my .02

[kali-ya.livejournal.com]

I read it and I get it. The graphic nature of the story paints a complete picture of the misery that Xander's life has become. His life is gritty, and raw, and dirty - and scenes like where he's wiping come off himself after his very unsatisfactory release helps to sum up this picture of futility. In this case, the sex wasn't meant to be hot, or arousing, but more about his state of mind. It's a drug, it's an escape, to really get that you have to paint an in-your-face picture that makes people uncomfortable. It makes them uncomfortable, because it SHOULD make them uncomfortable. It's NOT meant to titillate or satisfy a voyeuristic need in the reader - like say, your standard romantic fic would.

Was it gratuitous? I suppose that's all about personal taste, but I didn't think so. With this story, NOT giving a frank and visceral portrayal would make it easier for the reader to delude themselves over the "nastier" parts of his life - but this way, you FEEL it, you KNOW it. No rose-colored glasses. No romanticism. It's a painful read because of it, but it's REAL.

I respect you guys all the more for having the courage to go there - heavy head space to be in to even write the thing. Good job.

Re: my .02

[tabaqui]

Yup - we really don't want any overlay of 'fantasy' glossing this fic. It's *not* a fantasy, or - it's the actual reality of that *sort* of fantasy, and nothing like you might imagine.

Thank you so much!

discussion

[redrayne717.livejournal.com]

I'm writing my thoughts on this without having read the other replies to this post, simply so I can make sure my thoughts are my own on this.

I understand where Cat is coming from, and found myself nodding when he was talking about Deadwood and his Dad. I've tried watching Deadwood, but could not get past the language. I swear quite nicely in my own little world, but I don't believe that every sentence must have vulgarity. Deadwood was just too, TOO much for me.

I've also read fics where there is too much porn. While I enjoy porn as much as anyone, I don't need graphic sex scenes spread throughout 20 chapters. After the first few sex scenes, I find myself rolling my eyes, and skipping over them to get back to the story.

As far as this particular fic, I was not offended by the porn in this chapter. I think it did further the story, maybe not so much furthering the plot, but definitely giving me a true feel for the life of Xander Harris. That his time at "work" is his time to escape from his real life and baby is just sad. This fic has such a gritty, seedy feel to it, that I think the porn scenes fit in just right. I feel a deeper understanding of this character, than I think I would have if it were glossed over.

That being said, I don't necessarily think there needs to be a dozen more of those scenes to get the point across. As a reader, I got it.

Hope this hasn't offended anyone, and I am eager to read other's responses. Thank you for opening up this discussion!

Re: discussion

[tabaqui]

There can *always* be too much, yeah. But Rere and i are confident that we've balanced sex with plot and emotion in just the right amounts.

I'm glad you joined in!
:)

[steelknight.livejournal.com]

Everyone has an opinion, I happen to disagree with this one. To me the sex didn't cross any line it's what you would expect with this kind of storyline. I loved the first chapter of the story and I can't wait to see what happens next! I think it's great when a story actually lives up to it's Adult rating, so many don't. I feel the warning posted for the story were very clear and *the porn industry* was one of them. And that should tell any readers to expect graphic sex and plenty of it. Kudo's to both Reremouse and Tabaqui and more soon please!

[tabaqui]

Thank you! We both appreciate you taking the time to weigh in.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

I have not read the fic because I have to be in a place where I can read dark fic, if you know what I mean, and I'm not there right now. And after reading the comments to this thread, I probably will not ever read this fic because I have issues with parents feeling despair and anger, etc over their children. I had severe post-partum depression after my daughter was born and I don't like anything that makes me think of how I felt then, if that makes sense.

That being said, I think the purpose of sex scenes in writing should always be something other than sexual titillation. Sex scenes should reveal something about characterization, about relationships between characters, about power dynamics, about social class, about alien anatamoy, or whathaveyou. And from reading the comments here, it appears that you gals have used the sex in this fic to demonstrate Xander's mental and physical situation.

I do not have an issue with explicitness in sex scenes; my main beef with sex scenes is that it is really difficult to write a novel one. Humans have been writing about sex for thousands of years now and there's really only so many permutations of the act. That's why I think it's crucial that sex illuminate some aspect of character, or etc. Only then does it become something more than the same old sex scene you've already read.

[tabaqui]

I totally understand why you wouldn't want to read this, although to be fair - life for baby Julian gets about a million times better in chapter two.

I feel the same about sex scenes - i want it to *mean* something in regard to the story, not just be mindless pr0n.

Thanks for commenting!

[realtsunamigirl.livejournal.com]

Okay. Just finished reading the chapter so I feel equal to the task of commenting.

I have certainly gotten to the point where I was all "uh-huh...cock...come (oh sorry. cum)...twitch...another twitch...more cock. Okay, I got it. Love of the century, blah, blah, fishcakes. Just get the hell on with it" with stories. I think some writers use sex as a crutch to pull themselves through badly conceived stories. While I like me some good PWP, I generally prefer a story with sex as a developping point, not an end unto itself.

That have been said, there is absolutely nothing sexy about this story and I feel pretty secure in saying that the authors didn't intend anything sexy. This chapter is about loss of illusions and ideals and the claustrophobic clutch of desperate poverty.

And it's a well told story at that. Although I would expect nothing less from either of the authors in question.

As a general rule I subscribe to the "if it's not my cup of tea, I stop reading it" rule. That's why god invented the delete key. People who write fic, particularly slash, do it for the sheer joy of writing. Who am I to pee on their parade?

I say, trust the driver or get off the bus.

[tabaqui]

Oh, yes, i've read those stories too, when you just sort of wince your way over the sex scene in the desperate hope something good will...er...come of it.

And yes - not written to be even remotely sexy. Thanks for commenting!
:)

[stungunbilly.livejournal.com]

Wow. I guess for me, the real question is: why write a story? Why write down *anything*? The obvious answer is, that you wanted to. So you wanted to write explicit sex. And you did. And that other time you wanted to write something else, ditto.

Somebody said, I forget who, "why did Firefly need to be set in space, when it could have worked as a western and been cheaper to produce?" My answer is silence, because I don't know how to explain to someone who doesn't already know. But I know that I loved it largely for the thing that person couldn't see.

[tabaqui]

:)
Yeah, exactly.
Thanks for commenting!

[sparrow2000.livejournal.com]

This has turned into the most fascinating discussion, so I thought I’d put my tuppence worth in.

First of all, I’m completely with Cat’s Dad on Deadwood. I started watching it out of curiosity and because it had Ian McShane in it, really what’s not to love. But I have to say I abandoned in part way through series one because of the constant profanity. I just got fed up and believe me, if you heard me in real life you’d know my own language isn’t exactly convent girl. I just got bored and turned off.

The same thing applies with some fic I’ve read as well when the sex scenes take the place of the plot or are used to pad out a very thin idea. I’m totally not averse to a good PWP, but the writer needs to be honest that that’s what they are writing. I was reading a story last week by an author I like very much, but was getting really frustrated by the sheer number of sex scenes which seemed to have been inserted just to remind us that in the realms of slash fiction Xander and Spike like to fuck like bunnies. In this case a 40 part story could have been 20 parts as far as I was concerned and been no worse off in terms of plot payoff (and don’t get me wrong, the plot was really good)

Now onto Drowning Not Waving specifically…. I read it in a real hurry yesterday morning when I was getting ready for work because hey, it was a new story by tabaqui and reremouse, so work could wait 10 minutes. The images I had in my head all day weren’t about the sex, they were the ones about the baby lying in the drawer because Xander obviously can’t afford a cot, and the scenes on the cliff top where he struggles with his feelings of hopelessness and self hatred and blame and that focuses on the baby. Reading it again at greater leisure this morning those are still the main images I take from the story.

The bottom line is that Xander is working in the porn industry, and it’s not pretty or glamorous and I think you did need to show that. Unlike in some of your previous stories, the sex here isn’t meant to be erotic or even particularly titillating, it’s mechanical and detached and in a perverse way I’m happy that you actually have Xander sort of enjoying his job, because it somehow makes it slightly less hopeless.

I understand what Cat is saying and sympathise with his view point, and I’m not sure you need to continue to show the sex in quite so much detail in future chapters, but I think the set up in this chapter was necessary and gave a context to Xander’s emotions and state of mind for the rest of the story. This story is about as far from a PWP as you can get and I trust the authors to always put the story first and if there are sex scenes, however graphic, I'm going to assume they are there for a very good reason.

Sorry this was a bit of a long ramble.

[tabaqui]

A *good* long ramble! I have to agree that i've read stories that *did* use sex as a sort of filler and man - boring! *i will admit that my own first efforts were too sex-heavy but hey! we live and learn*

And yes, exactly - not meant to titillate or arouse, that scene. It's an everyday fact of his life that's not *happy* or exciting at all.

Thanks for commenting!