A discussion of sorts....

[tabaqui]

Yesterday, reremouse and i posted part one of Drowning Not Waving.


pretties_4u had a comment that we decided would be better off discussed out of the community.

His comment is here, and it concernes graphic depictions of sex that occur in the part one of the story. Please read, and reply if you feel moved to do so.




However unpopular this feedback may be, and expecting the worst in the interpretation of my comments, I have reached the point where I am unavoidably compelled to address these feelings I have regarding this story.

I've been enjoying the HBO series "Deadwood" quite a lot, especially now in the gritty third season. I was over at my dad's house visiting him the other day, and knowing he's a big fan of good western type movies, I inquired as to whether or not he had given "Deadwood" a watch at all. I was a little surprised at his response. He said that he had watched the first season, and while he had enjoyed the story and the characters very much, the extreme over abuse of vulgar language had made the show overall unbearable for him. Now don't get me wrong, dad's not a saint by any measure, I've heard some profanity out of him now and then myself. It surprised me to think that the language was *too strong* for my dad to be able to overlook it and enjoy the series.

It boils down to this, I guess - we all have our limits.

I have been reading over parts of this Reremouse/Tabaqui work, Daddy!Xander, though admittadly not in it's entirety. I try to read a lot of what Tabaqui writes, some is down my alley, some isn't. I read the things I enjoy, but I mostly skim the ones I find myself not enjoying.

I am put off by the graphic, explicit, blow by blow usage of sex in this story. I'm not an old prude, and certainly not in any way a homophobe... I have seen some wonderfully written stuff that alludes to the man sex, love, relationships of all types. I'm fine with it! Usually!

There is a point, though, like my father and the vulgar language in "Deadwood" - the line is crossed and for me the pornographic content becomes overbearing, seemingly gratuitous and much like "masturbation" by the authors, exhibitionists performing their never-to-really-be-lived kinks out on all Joss's children.

This story, especially this chapter, has become just that in my eyes.

I would like to ask the author's of this story to step up and address this issue. To explain to me the need to go to such lengths, to move beyond a good "pay TV adult rating" where we get a little mild sex to season the story (ala QAF, Six Feet Under, etc...) To delve into overly detailed ponographic sessions like this.

Do you the authors feel like your story can't bear the weight, have enough "plot substance" to carry it's weight without so much excruciatingly detailed sex fic? Do you write hardcore porn into your story to appeal to the reader's lust for porn, or is it more along the lines of Mary Sue'ing without literally putting your own selves into the tale? Do you have the need to describe the size of Xander's cock, for example, or the need to tell me the reader that Xander's balls "twitched"? (Incidentally, I always get a good chuckle out of twitching cocks and balls. Women writers always over-twitch our parts.)

It was necessary for some reason to make Xander a porn industry whore in this story. Further though, it seems also necessary to detail the in close and graphic matter that this is tied to. Why? Must it be so graphic and juicy? For what reason is it so, because the point couldn't have been made clear in the reader's mind without including Xander wiping come off of his chest and face? Is it *necessary*, or is it merely self indulgence on the part of the authors?

I believe both of these writers to be GOOD writers, with the ability to write strong and sturdy tales.
I find myself most dissapointed in the extreme use of porn in the telling of this tale. It crosses the line for me, and makes the whole of it unenjoyable.
We all must tell our tales, in one way or the other - I only bothered to spend a half hour of my life to write this response in order to ask WHY. Why the need for such strong and thick detail?

Thank you for considering my query, and thanks in advance for your explanation which I hope will follow.

regards,
-Cat



Read, discuss - reply! I know my flist is intelligent and has strong opinions - let's just keep it civil!
:)



ETA:This is the link to the post on the S'cubie board. Please heed julia_here and what she says about the purpose of the board.
It's down near the very bottom. S'cubie.

Comments

[sparrow2000.livejournal.com]

This has turned into the most fascinating discussion, so I thought I’d put my tuppence worth in.

First of all, I’m completely with Cat’s Dad on Deadwood. I started watching it out of curiosity and because it had Ian McShane in it, really what’s not to love. But I have to say I abandoned in part way through series one because of the constant profanity. I just got fed up and believe me, if you heard me in real life you’d know my own language isn’t exactly convent girl. I just got bored and turned off.

The same thing applies with some fic I’ve read as well when the sex scenes take the place of the plot or are used to pad out a very thin idea. I’m totally not averse to a good PWP, but the writer needs to be honest that that’s what they are writing. I was reading a story last week by an author I like very much, but was getting really frustrated by the sheer number of sex scenes which seemed to have been inserted just to remind us that in the realms of slash fiction Xander and Spike like to fuck like bunnies. In this case a 40 part story could have been 20 parts as far as I was concerned and been no worse off in terms of plot payoff (and don’t get me wrong, the plot was really good)

Now onto Drowning Not Waving specifically…. I read it in a real hurry yesterday morning when I was getting ready for work because hey, it was a new story by tabaqui and reremouse, so work could wait 10 minutes. The images I had in my head all day weren’t about the sex, they were the ones about the baby lying in the drawer because Xander obviously can’t afford a cot, and the scenes on the cliff top where he struggles with his feelings of hopelessness and self hatred and blame and that focuses on the baby. Reading it again at greater leisure this morning those are still the main images I take from the story.

The bottom line is that Xander is working in the porn industry, and it’s not pretty or glamorous and I think you did need to show that. Unlike in some of your previous stories, the sex here isn’t meant to be erotic or even particularly titillating, it’s mechanical and detached and in a perverse way I’m happy that you actually have Xander sort of enjoying his job, because it somehow makes it slightly less hopeless.

I understand what Cat is saying and sympathise with his view point, and I’m not sure you need to continue to show the sex in quite so much detail in future chapters, but I think the set up in this chapter was necessary and gave a context to Xander’s emotions and state of mind for the rest of the story. This story is about as far from a PWP as you can get and I trust the authors to always put the story first and if there are sex scenes, however graphic, I'm going to assume they are there for a very good reason.

Sorry this was a bit of a long ramble.

[tabaqui]

A *good* long ramble! I have to agree that i've read stories that *did* use sex as a sort of filler and man - boring! *i will admit that my own first efforts were too sex-heavy but hey! we live and learn*

And yes, exactly - not meant to titillate or arouse, that scene. It's an everyday fact of his life that's not *happy* or exciting at all.

Thanks for commenting!