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Tuesday, May 22nd, 2007 10:57 pm
I figured it was time...

Hot here, then chilly, rainy then dry, humid then not...gah! I loathe summer.

I'm working on *three* fics at once. Jayzus. Two Sweet Charity fics and my BigBang fic, which isn't really a BigBang fic since i missed the due date for first draft. But! Writing! Spander and SPN fic in the offing!

:)

I wanted to link a post about, basically, fannish etiquitte. A very non-wanky response to the recent wank, plus a good read.

"I've always wondered what fandom etiquette was for negative feedback or negative constructive criticism."

As for the recent wank itself...am i now to be counted on the side of 'mean girls'? Perhaps i am. Well, so be it. I did not, once, say anything *personal* about the author whose work was being discussed. Pretty much no one did, that i recall. But the simple fact that i have an opinion and stated it - in, yes, not the *nicest* of ways - has made me a terrible person to some.

I honestly cannot care. A point - several points - were entierly ignored and glossed in the rush to 'defend' said fragile soul's honor and feelings and i just...am baffled.

For the record - if any of you out there want to con-crit the bejeezus out of my fic? Have at it. It's *always* open mic night, as it were, at Other Scarecrows. Point out my typos, tell me my grasp of English grammar is atrocious, flail about in a moil of confusion because my plot-fu is teh suck. Go for it!

I write because i *must*. Because there are stories and voices in my head that won't be silent. I want to show you *my* world, and if my words don't work, i want to know!

One last thing - there are several people out there who are friends with 'said author' who have, in the past, commented here. They - any one - is welcome to continue to comment here. I don't check other people's flists, and i don't care who you read, or comment to, or friend. It's not my business and it means utterly nothing. I would not - could not - be that petty.

And - i got tagged on a meme by [livejournal.com profile] buffyaddict13 and i'm actually gonna do it! So it's under the cut.


1. I like my apple pie with sharp cheddar cheese. *Not* whipped cream, not ice cream. *shudder*. Cheese and apple pie - yes! The texture of pie and ice cream together - or of cake and ice cream together - just squicks me.

2. I don't like thins on my right side. Meaning - i wear no rings or earrings on my right, or bracelets. No tattoos there, either. If i have a belt that ties or a skirt that wraps or whatever, the knot and the excess goes on the *left*. Same for any sort of decoration that you might put on a jacket or shirt.

3. I love cats, i dislike dogs. Dogs are too damn needy. However. I'm allergic to cats, have six of them, and so wash my hands a lot.

4. The first line of 'Out of Africa', by Isak Dinesen, makes me cry. Every. Damn. Time.

5. I like sparklies. Little jeweled boxes, shells with mother-of-pearl like shimmer to them. Bits and bobs and stones with holes and crystals and little colored glass bottles and scraps of fancy tile. Rhinestone jewlery and inlaid chopsticks and... Yes. I have a magpie heart.

6. Despite my love of sparklies, i do not wear jewelry as an accesory. I have a necklace that i do not remove, and rings on my left hand that only come off very, very seldom. And that is all.

7. My black velvet frock coat is my favorite piece of clothing in the world.

8. When i was a child, i would walk in the woods and talk to the trees. I would pretend i was the 'councilor' for the animals and would climb up into the 'Council seat' - a nicely shaped cedar tree - and hold court. Help them sort out their differnces and such. I named all the places around my house that were 'special'. The Grove of the Gods, The Council Seat, the Lion's Den... Even then, my inner life was rich and strange.
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Wednesday, May 23rd, 2007 04:37 am (UTC)
Wow - that link was amazing. It put my little snarky comments to shame. Thanks for that link. Now I am going to bed before I go blind from too much LJ!
Wednesday, May 23rd, 2007 04:45 am (UTC)
I want to show you *my* world, and if my words don't work, i want to know!

The thing that flummoxed me the most from the whole kerfluffle--the thing that always flummoxes me in this sort of kerfluffle--is, I didn't even get concrit when I asked for it in the Holiday Feedback-A-Thon. Why do the people who hate concrit get it, and I can't even beg for it?

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Wednesday, May 23rd, 2007 09:14 am (UTC)
Why do the people who hate concrit get it, and I can't even beg for it?

Seconded!
I did that!
And gave and I did not receive!

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Wednesday, May 23rd, 2007 04:49 am (UTC)
thank you very much for the link - it was quite interesting and level headed reading!

and honestly, although i wish i could offer more concrit on your fic lady, i promote you to non-fan people as the kind of writing that i'm sticking around for... because frankly, i adore the way you work so hard and you actually do achieve your goals. Seriously, I finally got my non-fan best friend to read fic because of Neverland. Of course, now he wants things that are that fantastic, and I'm running out fast. My only wish is that you would try your hand at other characters than just S/X more often, but I understand how having the two of them take root in your heart might make it hard to write in the same world but without their voices.

Anyway, thank you for your particular brand of fan participation, and for caring, still, about it all. :D
Wednesday, May 23rd, 2007 05:08 am (UTC)
Yeah, there's a lot of worship at the Church of Eternal Bafflement lately.

*shakes head*

That was a great link ... my energy's limited to barely coherent sputtering these days so I'm impressed when someone can actually elucidate thoughts in a coherent, non-wanky way.

The Grove of the Gods is just nifty.

Wednesday, May 23rd, 2007 05:28 am (UTC)
The only negative comments I've ever gotten was for not using Consorts and blood bonds in my fic and the occasional complaint that there are too many gay guys in my fic. Those I can cope with. I would need multiple negative comments on the same point to make me consider them seriously.

It makes me feel a little left out, that I've not inspired any kerfuffles.
Wednesday, May 23rd, 2007 05:44 am (UTC)
I'm with you on #1. Apple pie should be served with a slice of melted sharp cheddar on top. I rarely get to have it because I'm allergic to cinnamon and it's hard to find an apple pie that's not cinnamon'd to death but if I or my mother makes it then there must be cheese. Whip cream only belongs on pumpkin pie... I assume. I don't eat that much either for the same reason.

Thanks for the link. It was a really well written post that I would have NEVER stumbled across.
Wednesday, May 23rd, 2007 09:16 am (UTC)
Cheese with apple pie - I would never have thought of it!
Must try it.
Have you tried cheese and chocolate biscuits?
Oh, and cheese on toast and marmalade?
Or scones with jam and cheese?
Wednesday, May 23rd, 2007 09:22 am (UTC)
I don't write fiction - I've never had the courage to post anything I've written so I applaud anyone who does post. I love your writing - your stories stick with people, and it's obvious how much work goes into yours and many other authors in the fandom, and (as a longtime fanfic fan) how much most authors develop and improve their writing style over time, and carry on working at it.

As a non-writer or poster I don't feel equipped to offer concrit (or any other sort of crit) but I don't think you are a 'mean girl' for feeling passionate about what you and other writers do. From observation, this is a very supportive fandom, with concrit being a part of it along with betas.

Although it's very different, I write dull dull technical papers and reports, and actively seek concrit from my peers to try and stop them from being gob-smackingly mind-numbingly boring! Sometimes I feel hurt by what people say, but (mostly) I know they are right, and act on it!

Lily
Wednesday, May 23rd, 2007 10:01 am (UTC)
I love apple pie and cheese. My mum made the best apple pie, nice and tart rather than overly sweet with pastry that managed to be crisp but melty. We eat cheese, white stilton as a rule, with Christmas cake over here too.

I'm amazed at how long this fandom thing has dragged on, how nasty it became, and how many people have thrown themselves into this for no apparent reason then cried victim when they received negative comments.

I must admit that I really would like more concrit on my stories, and I'd like to be able to give more too, though I'm very wary about doing that these days.It would be nice though to be able to discuss the mechanics of a story, what works and what doesn't. Not that positive feedback isn't lovely and hugely appreciated by any writer, but it would be nice to have more sometimes.
Wednesday, May 23rd, 2007 10:19 am (UTC)
Thanks for the link, it was an amazing read.

I'll never be able to offer concrit on your fic *g*, but I'm not afraid to let you know if I find a typo, because I know you'll take it just like that - an offer to make your story more perfect. It's a very good feeling for a reader to know that, so thanks.
Wednesday, May 23rd, 2007 02:45 pm (UTC)
Huh. Whatever this kerfluffle is, it must be massive because oblique posts have popped up all over my flist. I'm glad I'm on the periphery, as it were.

I don't think you could ever be labeled a mean girl. I think you are a very generous and gifted person and I've never seen you behave in any other way.

*hugs*
Wednesday, May 23rd, 2007 02:55 pm (UTC)
Hi there -- just wanted to wave and say that I like you very much. Don't know how anyone can think you are a terrible person, simply for stating your opinion. This kerfuffle is completely out of control.

I love your list. Especially #8 -- I had some similar places to visit in the woods when I was a kid.
Wednesday, May 23rd, 2007 04:52 pm (UTC)
Thank you for pointing out that link. It was thought provoking, although I didn't really feel qualified to comment *g* which kind of backs up what she says at the beginning.
The thing that sort of worries me is your last paragraph before the cut. After almost a year on LJ, I'm beginning to see that there are real factions in fandom. I may be slow, not to have realised before, but I was carrying on my merry way, being polite to everybody who was polite to me and I never noticed.
Anyway, I love your stories and I remember you as being one of the writers on m-mslashoholics and Excessant, who was always polite enough to reply to my feedback, even though I never sent it 'on list' so no one would know if you didn't reply. I always appreciated that, because there were some people who would reply to public feedback, publicly, but didn't bother to reply to my private feedback.

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Wednesday, May 23rd, 2007 06:18 pm (UTC)
I love number 8. You rock. :)
Wednesday, May 23rd, 2007 06:24 pm (UTC)
I'm with you about tart apple pie-I make mine with Granny Smiths, a bit of butter, cinnamon and just a sprinkling of raw sugar-i hate gloppy sickeningly sweet apple pie filling. And sharp cheddar is good with anything.

i was a city kid, but I still had my sacred place a few blocks from home in a wooded area by the Hudson River-a little rock outcropping in a clearing in the trees, just the other side of the outcrop were the swings and sandbox. i'd run off there every chance I got, and wished that I was tall enough to unlock the front door and sneak out down the hill at night, and dance in the moonlight under the trees, and sleep in the little cave the rocky overhang created.

As for concrit, feedback of any kind is difficult for me as a non-writer. I do my best, but tend to concentrate on the bits of special rightness I find in my favorite authors' work, references for example, like your green man, or your Pan being Dionysian rather than Disney, or using the song about the wily fox hunting in the light of the moon in your Wolfpack story or your exceptional ability to bring a scene to life with description-of tastes, sounds, weather, so that they become living things. If I'm enjoying a fic, but nothing especially leaps out at me, I just from time to time say reading and enjoying, Thanks for the update. if I see a fic that I don't think is well written as a result of poor grammar, usage or structure, but interesting in terms of plot and the feel of the characters, I suppose I could comment, but I tend ton leave it to writers and betas . If I just don't like the subject matter or characterizations, I s top reading, because I don't see how I can concrit a person's imagination or issues.

So as to the kerfuffle, to me it seems to have less to do with feedback and concrit than a clash of thought processes and worldviews-folks on both "sides" are ostensibly speaking about the same thing- maybe in this case Buffyverse fanfic, but in reality although they are using the same words, they are not speaking the same emotional language. I don't think that you can successfully concrit someone's imagination or worldview, or fully understand the life and experiences that went into shaping it. And speaking to the ostensible point when hot buttons are being pushed right and left ? When people become so emotionally charged, they can't hear. And if you can't hear, yo can't understand and you can't mend.

Oh yeah, and cats rule.

sami

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Thursday, May 24th, 2007 06:53 am (UTC)
3. I love cats, i dislike dogs. Dogs are too damn needy. However. I'm allergic to cats, have six of them, and so wash my hands a lot

There's a homeopathic remedy for that which doesn't cure you of the allergy but instead aclimates your system to a particular cat, my friend used it for her cat and said it worked like a charm. If you're interested I can ask her what it's called and if it works when you have that many animals. I love cats and I've always thought it sucked when you can't have one around because you're allergic.

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Thursday, May 24th, 2007 08:14 pm (UTC)
For the record - if any of you out there want to con-crit the bejeezus out of my fic? Have at it.

It's funny, but though I'm not on your journal very often, one of the things I do remember is seeing someone leave you a detailed piece of criticism about your writing way back when, and that you handled it very calmly. That said, the "recent wank" you're talking about has been coming for a long, long time. I know people who've been taking bets on it since at least last October. If people are taking issue with you because of it, they're being pretty ridiculous. :/
Saturday, May 26th, 2007 09:25 pm (UTC)
I'm almost never around these parts now having developed rather a crush on tall, dark and teh sexy, as per my icon. And yet Oh Dear I think I know of this kerfuffle about which you speak.

And have probably already left one concilataroy message sympathising with hurt feelings and upset ect, having seen just the one rather worrying post from someone whose writing I love, and who I'm guessing may be the other person in this on going thing.

And now here is another worrying post, from someone else whose writing I love. Are you really having to flock over all this stuff that's going on?

Damn it

I don't imagine for one second you are a mean girl and holy heck if someone as talented as you can't say what they think about fanfic writing what hope is there for the rest. And even if you were a mean girl I'd still love you and defend your right to be so.

Maybe because I'm a fan of whoever I'm a fan of, maybe because I don't really get involed in any discussions as such in this fandom at all, I want to be here and I hope I can be friended if needs be, and still come here from time to time to read teh pretties. Just as I will also go to the other place and do the same.

I don't want to join in any sides or arguments. I just want to be able to go to all the places I want to go to and read all the things I want to read and comment wherever I like about what I like. And this is definitley one of the places that I like.

But incase anyone feels I'm trying to be dupliticious here I will openly admit I did say some personal things to who I think this other person is, simply because they were so upset and they are someone who has been kind to me in the past. That doesn't mean that I want, or need to go anywhere else and say the opposite.
Maybe because I have recently been on the receiving end of a teey tiny little bit of a thing not really but it left me feeling supersensitive to other people's upset.

i know you are not at all petty but I still rather be upfront about it. Just so you know, makes me a touchy-feely sort I suppose, a virtual hug giver when see someone upset.

And if you are upset at all by what has happend or has been said to you then I'm realy sorry to hear that, because I actually hate the thought of anyone being upset, and always want to make it better if I can so have a hug too, if you want.

Actually I'm pretty sure you aren't upset, but I'm just saying if you were, then I'd want to.

This is such an amazing place, but it always seem to become sidelined by feelings and emotions why do things that start out probably quite logical and unemotive suddenly flare up like volcanos and before you know it people are taking sides and all and people are feeling that they need to flock their LJ.

I just want to say "Fuck taking sides" I just like who I like and what I like and I don't care about the rest, but in a huggy touchy-feely way of course.

Maybe whoever said the vulcan's might have been on to something was right, but alas I am too much of an emotional jelly to not have feelings and not be upset and not want other people not to be upset.

Any way plese friend me Tabby cat
I'd miss you if I couldn't find you from time to time even if it is infrequently.

And now to the really shocking part of this post.

Cheddar cheese and apple pie is indeed a classic, infact in some parts of the UK the only way to serve apple pie would be with a slice of cheese, usually cheddar, but sometimes it can be wenslydale too.

But may I also recommend a sandwich made with cheddar cheese and strawberry jam. Equally good as apple pie and cheese. No doubt sounding equally stomach-churning to the uninitiated.

The sweet but acid jam cuts the rich yet salty taste of the cheese to perfection, IMHO.

And another similar would be a sandwich made with Brie and cranberry jelly.

Monday, May 28th, 2007 03:32 am (UTC)
you are the nicest person in the world. I know this because you let me bug you whenever,and you never say 'shut up, I have my own deal, you crybaby.' That's the personal stuff. As for writing, I cannot imagine you ever making anyone feel uncomfortable or upset by any criticism you might have. I've never been brave enough to ask for concrit--(see 'crybaby') but if suddenly I grew a pair and asked for it, I know you'd never hurt me. As for me, I refuse to give it because writing is so personal, I'm not very good in the technical department, and I'd much rather audience (cheerlead) than step on someones toes.

When i was a child, i would walk in the woods and talk to the trees. I would pretend i was the 'councilor' for the animals and would climb up into the 'Council seat' - a nicely shaped cedar tree - and hold court. Help them sort out their differnces and such. I named all the places around my house that were 'special'. The Grove of the Gods, The Council Seat, the Lion's Den... Even then, my inner life was rich and strange.

Just another example of why I love you like crazy.
Tuesday, June 5th, 2007 05:48 am (UTC)
Anyone who thinks you, of all people, are a terrible person, deserves a steel toe boot up the ass.

I honestly cannot care. A point - several points - were entierly ignored and glossed in the rush to 'defend' said fragile soul's honor and feelings and i just...am baffled.

My feeling is, if you can't take crit on the nose, get the fuck out of the arena. When a critique pisses me off--which it only does if it's vague and lazily unspecific about what was objectionable--I come out swinging, ready to defend my story till I'm proven wrong. I don't cry in a corner or let my cheerleader fangrrrl friends take on the world for me.

And really, at what point is a reader with any kinda taste allowed to just say wtf?!!!

It's too much like all the bullshit going on with Six Apart deleting journals. People not grasping the whole freedom of speech thing, as well as not being willing to police their own kids their own damn selves--

::steps off of soapbox::

I write because i *must*. Because there are stories and voices in my head that won't be silent. I want to show you *my* world, and if my words don't work, i want to know!

Your world? Rocks and you share it beautifully. I'm sure partly because in the past, you took criticisms to your head, not your heart.

1--Apples and cheddar? De. Lic. Ious. Dunno why, it just is. I've put diced up apple bits in grilled cheese sandwiches. I've melted Cracker Barrel Xtra Sharp over pie and in pie. I do not like pie and ice cream together. Fruit (which makes frequent guest appearances in pie) and ice cream don't go together.


2. I mostly just go for balance. Pierce the right side, then next piercing goes on the left. Same for everything else. If it feels like my sides are uneven, I . . . quickly find a way to make them so.

3. I like that cats aren't as damn dirty as dogs are, and that they're smart enough not to eat their own poop. But I don't like the disdain they regard us, their human overlords, with. If I could get over the germy-stupid thing, I'd totally be a dog person.

4. Must pick up "Out Of Africa". . . .

5. You do have a magpie heart, lol. I don't like sparkle, much, unless they're piercings. Or leather jewelry with spikes.

6. I used to wear gold earrings and a gold crucifix. Now, I just wear leather or hemp jewelry. Or that friendship crap they make you make out of beads and twine at summer camp.

7. I'm not surprised you own a velvet frock coat and that so suits you! Frock coats are awesome. Alas, I slouch too much to carry them off. And I'm alway shoving my hands in my pockets too hard and destroy them.
::sighs::

I'd wear a watch-fob, too, if I could. . . .

8. No wonder you're such a good writer! I used to just pretend I was one of a band of survivors of a nuclear apocalypse. Or that I was lost on the River, trapped in a boat surrounded by piranhas. This was a game often played on the couch, in front of the tv. It was my favorite =D

Have you ever though of turning the things you imagined into a series of children's stories? Like published books? Find a decent illustrationist--even one just getting out of school, they'll work for peanuts, or just a chance at having a published work in their portfolio.

And your plot-fu? Is teh shiznit.
::bows to the sifu::