Happy Fourth! And now....a question...

[tabaqui]

Hello. Yes, another ficless update! Aren't i cool.

Anyway - Cat and i were talking and Cat was wondering something and now i'm wondering it so...

If you are from the UK, is there some lingering...national sentiment that sure, they've got James Marsters and Supernatural and 31 Flavors but...that should all be *ours! ours!!* those rat bastards?

I personally cannot conceive of such a thing but...does such a sentiment exist anywhere? When Bollywood tosses out hottie singing guys in eyeliner and chicks who are just so curvey and perfect is there a smoldering *grrrrr* anywhere?

Idle curiousity, folks. I think the answers are gonna be fun. If i get any.

And hey - now's your chance to tell me *every tiny thing* about America that bugs the crap out of you!

*just for the record, i despise The Shrub*
*so you'll be preachin' to the choir on *that* subject*

In other news? Deadwood!!!
OMFGILUFFIT!!!
*smoooches killerweasel*

Comments

[electricalgwen.livejournal.com]

I'm not quite sure I get what you're talking about. Is Cat asking whether there's still an empire sentiment active in the UK? I.e., do people here think that the US, or Bollywood, should still be "Property Of" the Great British Empire? If so - I'm reasonably sure the answer is no.

The English are more concerned these days with the effects of their former empire-building coming home to roost. They colonized India, and now the national pub dinner is no longer steak-and-kidney pie, it's curry and chips. If you go to get a baked potato from the cafeteria, topping options include baked beans or chicken tikka masala. India, Pakistan and particularly Australia routinely beat them at cricket. They are concerned about high levels of immigration, but hello? They went, occupied all these places, acted superior and told everyone how Britain was the best place in the world to live, and now they're surprised that people followed them home? :)

The Scots have broken free and the Irish are an ongoing problem. Canada refused to join Tony Blair and (*spork*) Bush Jr. in the "War on Terror". The UK has major social problems including alcoholism, massive increase in drugs and gun crime, and the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe - but they still have this apparently unshakeable sense of superiority. (Hmm. There's a certain similarity to America here. Where did the colonists come from again, hmm? :)

By and large, folks here don't much like the US, because the perception is that the US doesn't know, or want to know, about the rest of the world. Any time I've been in the US for a conference or something, and turned on the TV? It's all local/national, almost nothing about the rest of the world - and if there is something, it's through a highly filtered, highly biased US perspective. I was there when the German elections were going on some time back - I had to wait til I got home to find out who won. Maybe the US media will cover Canadian elections. Maybe.

I'm Canadian - now living in UK - and again, the general disregard for the rest of the world *and us* is what pisses us off. The arrogance. Take the softwood lumber dispute. The US has been ruled against multiple times by the terms of NAFTA and by world courts, and their response? Ignore it. Hey, what's Canada gonna do? Stop selling lumber? Attack the US? Tell Bryan Adams, Mike Myers, Wayne Gretzky, Shania Twain and Celine Dion to come home? *snerk*

/rant

I like a lot of people I've met in the US. In fact, I like almost everyone I've ever actually met who's American. Maybe that's because I meet/interact with the Americans who travel, who are interested in world politics, and who write slash *g*, whereas those who voted for Bush tend not to cross my path. So, it's not all negative? *questioning smile*

Happy Indepence Day!

[tabaqui]

Yeah, the empire sentiment is what we both meant and yeah - i think that arrogance is a bit genetic.
*cough*

I dislike intensely the 'amercia is an island' *i know, i know* attitude. It's annoying in the extreme to have to *work* to find international news that isn't filtered through a 'aren't we cool and don't these furriners suck!' lens. Probaby because we *are* an island with only two boreders that we feel so...

Lofty, i guess. Or safe to ignore what's going on in the world.

It will bite us in the ass, oh yes.
*sporks my govt*
*sporks The Shrub extra hard*

[electricalgwen.livejournal.com]

Oh hey. I'm plenty arrogant at times. *g* (But then, I was only second-generation Canadian - grandparents British. Hmm. :)

The UK often has similar attitudes about "Johnny Foreigner", but they can't ignore the outside world in terms of news etc., especially given the degree they're integrated into the European Union (though there's lots of low-level, and some high-level, grumbling about that too.) It's been interesting to listen to the World Cup coverage, for instance, and earlier in the year, the EuroVision song contest - getting an idea of their views of other nations.

I'm afraid of the extent to which the foretold US-ass-biting/kicking will cause havoc in the rest of the world. It won't be confined to America - nor will the response, obviously.

That's an interesting thought, the being an almost-island. I hadn't really thought about that before. Canada is similar - and we don't even share a northern border, really - but I guess the much smaller population, later and incomplete split from England, and bilingualism/multiculturalism policies may have contributed to the different view of the world. America's just so...big. Geographically, population-wise, economically. Idealistically. There's a big difference in the New World and Old World mindsets that took me a while to cotton onto here, and I still don't really get all the ramifications, but it has a lot to do with ambition, social classes, and the whole American Dream thing.

Oh, and if you'll permit, I forgot to mention in my first comment:

Health. Care.

*flails*

[tabaqui]

Yes, to all of that, particularly the health care *omg*.

I wonder...i think because you really had to *want* it to come over here at first, you know? YOu had to save and scrimp and suffer and leave *everything* behind and start over in this incredibly vast and scary place and so the people that were over here were just...

A different mindset. One that was happy to throw off kings and churches and things. There weren't many places left in the 'old world' that were as raw or as unlawful.
:)
*i'm so glad people are replying! This is fun*

[electricalgwen.livejournal.com]

YES.

And the people who came, came because they wanted a better life. For them, and particularly for their children. They want their children to do bigger and better things, to have more chances, to get more education, to own more stuff. They sacrifice so their kids can get out of the slums and move on up in the world.

I do not speak for the whole of the UK (or any of it for that matter! this is all me!) but I do live in a rather gritty area where I think a different mentality prevails. Here - if you're trying to be more than those around you, more than your parents, there's resentment. There's the attitude that, "Working in the factory was good enough for my dad, and for his dad, and it's good enough for me, and it's damn well good enough for my kid!" It's like, if you choose to pursue more, you're making negative judgments on your roots. Trying to rise above your social station isn't popular here, and those around will try to pull you down to their level.

The class system is still very much present, albeit less officially, and more to do with money these days. I live in an area where most people are working-class, and damn proud of it, and wouldn't want to be "educated, stuck-up, toffee-nosed poncy bastards". Yet, although they may scoff, they'll treat doctors, lawyers, architects etc. with a certain awe. My next-door-neighbour-but-one practically doffs his cap to them.

[tabaqui]

And see, this is *horrifying* to me, because i can't imagine having a respectable but nowhere going job and *not* wanting your kids to do more.

Unfortunately, a lot of black people - mostly young ones - here think like that. That getting an education is 'selling out' and rejecting your black heritage and man... I just think about what Harriet Tubman or Booker T. Washington or *any* black figure in history would say to that, you know?

It's cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Also unfortunately, a lot of people here have taken 'better' to mean 'more' and the 'gimme gimme gimme' attitude just turns me *off*. Greedy bastards.

The whole class thing is here, too, but it's subtle and evol and...weird. I don't like it.

[electricalgwen.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean, which is why it took me a fairly long time to grasp the mindset.

C.S. Lewis wrote something about it in the Screwtape Letters - he was writing in a different context, and had some dated ideas regarding hierarchy (in both the temporal and spiritual worlds) - but there's a passage that I've never forgotten, about how democracy can propagate the idea that because everyone is equal, everyone must be the same. And then that idea gets twisted, in that it's somehow "undemocratic" to be different, especially to be (in your fellow person's view) superior. And then social pressures come to bear on the different individuals, and they themselves will strive to be as "normal" as possible - even if that means being less than they can be. He likens people to stalks of wheat in a field - it's not someone coming through and cutting the tops off that prevent some of the stalks from growing taller than others. The stalks are biting their own tops off in the desire to Be Like Stalks.

Or something like that. I haven't read it in years.

I don't have a good grasp of class and race issues in America, but yeah, the whole "selling out" idea does sound counter-intuitive to what people were fighting for.

[tabaqui]

Oh, yeah, i totally get that. And then people are *terrified* of different and...

I personally think it really fuels the whole hate-crime mindset, myself. And the idea that a celebrity is not only someone you watch in the movies but it's perfectly okay to invade their life and house and be totally rude and grabby and all that. It's just...skeery.

*not that i think a celebrity is sacrosanct, 'cause they *are* putting themselves out there, but there should be *limits* people...*

The 'don't get smart 'cause it's a sell-out' idea is so frightening. I mean - jayzus, that's going to ruin so many lives... Blah!

[http://users.livejournal.com/_beetle_/]

Unfortunately, a lot of black people - mostly young ones - here think like that. That getting an education is 'selling out' and rejecting your black heritage and man... I just think about what Harriet Tubman or Booker T. Washington or *any* black figure in history would say to that, you know?

During junior high, and after, I encountered a lot of that from kids and adults. Not from my family--especially not my mother's side. They're West Indian, so . . . the work/betterment ethic is scray-strong.

Growing up I was pushed to be the best, monitored and kept away from "neighborhood kids" that my family considered . . . unsuitable. My elementary school? Largely West Indian, full of kids with parents who were at least as strict and demanding as my mother. I thought that that's the way it was for all kids.

The school was all black--teachers, students and administration. We got taught black history daily, grew up learning all about heritage and pride--Harriet Tubman, Booker T Washington, Thurgood Marshall, Phyllis Wheatley, Benjamin Bannaker, Charles Drew. We got taught that the only way to make the sacrifices of our ancestors worthwhile was to be all we could be. The only way to do that was to get an education and give back to the community.

I didn't really encounter the whole "education is selling out", "betraying your blackness" thing till junior high. I mean, I was always geeky, and too damn goody-goody, but add to that that I spoke properly, didn't get into trouble, and did well academically . . . making friends was hard. I got called Wannabe, Oreo, and all sorts of wonderful names, including "the whitest black kid ever".

(Which, as I got older, has stopped making me wanna curl up in a ball and cry, and actually makes me laugh. At least if it's coming from someone who's teasing, and not out make a dent in my hard-won armor.)

What got me was that the kids who were doing the name-calling knew nothing or nearly nothing about their heritage. But they knew the songs of whatever inflammatory rapper was popular at the time, and they knew what shoes were in style.

As if being black is something as superficial as the way you act, or talk, or dress. Or how much education you don't have. As if I didn't experience the same prejudice, get followed around the same stores, or get pigeon-holed in the same ways they did.

And of course because I never fit anyone's expectations of how a black kid from Brooklyn was supposed to be, I was always getting that left-handed compliment of "oh, my, you speak so well!" from damn near everyone I met who wasn't black. And a few who were.

I think it's a bit easier for kids today, depending on where a they live. But I see plenty of kids around this jerkwater burg with that same mentality and I just wonder how long, if ever, before they realize that old bromide about knowledge being power is true.

/rant

[tabaqui]

Dude. I am totally in awe of your rant.
You? Magnificent.

*can't imagine telling any native-english speaker 'you speak so well!' in any circumstances*
*i mean...jayzus fucking christ*

I'm just - horrified by that attitude. And white kids have it to, just for different reasons, you know? It's like - in 100 more years there will be this huge block of the public that is so fucking dirt-dumb...it's terrifying.

*hugs you hard*

[rainkatt.livejournal.com]

Any time I've been in the US for a conference or something, and turned on the TV? It's all local/national, almost nothing about the rest of the world - and if there is something, it's through a highly filtered, highly biased US perspective.

This isn't just limited to our nation/the rest of the world, it's state to state. When I moved from Washington to California, I was appalled at how hard it was to get news of what was happening in the old neighborhood. News of anywhere else is given short shrift. You may be onto part of the reason--we're so huge--why should anyone in southern California care if there's an earthquake in the Northwest? But so much about it is all about the spin.

As far as international news goes, I don't know. Everything on TV seems to me to be spun and homogenized, and I pay very little attention to it. My local classical music radio station has hourly BBC newsfeeds, and I always learn more from that, and from the internet, but it's easy to be ignorant here.

I have no friends who love Bush, but I work with some people who do, and I wonder about them. Fear seems to have a lot to do with it.

[electricalgwen.livejournal.com]

*sigh* It's fairly easy to be ignorant anywhere, I think, if you don't apply yourself to looking critically for the truth. I'm certainly not suggesting that the BBC News (or the CBC, or anyone) is unbiased, but at least there's a lot more mention of stuff beyond the national borders.

Maybe size does have something to do with it. I still find it cute/bizarre/different to hear the traffic news on BBC2. Traffic news on national radio. Nation-wide traffic news. From Bristol to Edinburgh and beyond.

Fear is a powerful motivator (as explored in Bowling for Columbine.)