This post is *that* post....

[tabaqui]

This doesn't happen often here, i know, 'cause i tend to be oblivious to most LJ wank, kerfuffles and explosions. But i happened to step right into this one, so i felt like i should speak up.



Yes, thenyxie is on my flist. Yes, i saw her first post about all this and posted a comment in support of her. My impression from her post was 'anonymous people in this anonymous hate meme are slandering me/my SO! Wincon has banned me over it!!'

Which seemed monstrously unfair and hinky and *weird*. And i said, in essence - 'i sure as hell hope the Wincon people have some kind of proof besides anonymous gossip! And they better pony up!'

Now, yes, that reads *very poorly*. My bad. I did not, do not, and will not ever advocate the 'outing' of people who have been assaulted or attacked. Unless you're sitting in a witness box in a court of law, you are not obliged to stand on a street corner and shout to the world that you have been attacked. I really envisioned and hoped that the Wincon people and Nyxie would privately get together online and explain the situation without revealing the names of anyone who didn't feel okay being public. If you're accused of something, you *do* have the right to the details of the accusations, though not a list of names so you can 'sue' anyone, or sic lawyers on them.

I now know many more details, and am...not happy at all with how this was presented, or how it played out. I will not delete my comments, because they're mine and i own them, but i did want to make clear my 'stance', for lack of a better word.

I'll talk about this, if you think it needs more talking. Myself, i don't want people driven off LJ with flaming torches and pitchforks, any more than i want them driven away from a convention because they're afraid of what might happen.

What i want is for people - myself included - to stop and think before they talk, and make sure they have all the facts first. I know i should have.

Comments

A likely unpopular and overly verbose take on the topic...

[realtsunamigirl.livejournal.com]

Okay I just re-checked your post and I have to say something that is going be *really* unpopular (that is if anyone but you bothers reading it.)

Unfortunately, I'm fairly certain you're wrong on a few points here.

Let me start by saying that I don't like how the things that I have to say play out in a lot of cases, but that people need to understand that not liking them doesn't make them any less true. I hate victim blaming and while I'm pretty sure that I would have brushed the situation in question off myself, I don't have nearly enough facts to make that claim for sure. I am also not those women and they have/had the right to say no and get the hell out unimpeded. If (and I say if because no one has been convicted or even charged) things played out as they are being described it pisses me off to no end. Any person has the right to say no at any time leading up to or during any kind of sexual act.

But...as the child of a lawyer I can tell you flat out that the law is the law. It's frequently not pretty or especially fair and it ain't decided upon by the internet or the judgements of people organising a fan convention no matter how kind, professional and well-meaning they are.

The legal Gordian knot are as follows (as I understand them with my incomplete set of information)

1) Because it was advertised as a public event Wincon cannot legally deny someone entry based on previous behaviour unless they were charged and convicted. In order for Wincon to ban them, they have to be a private club. That means that everyone who wants to come would have to have become a registered member of the "club" before they bought their ticket. Nyxie could be bounced after entry, if she broke the rules, but she or anyone else cannot be denied entry to a publicly advertised event.

2) The position of the hate-meme (obscenities in and of themselves, in my opinion) is very vague, but does seem to have some place in this matter; if I were the original poster, I would be getting very nervous right now. Without a conviction, this is slander/libel at its ripest.

3) Any one being charged with a crime has a right to face their accuser, therefore has a right to their name. If no charges are being pressed, Wincon is stuck between a rock and a hard place: they either don't give up the names and based their actions on hearsay of the shakiest kind or they give up the names and the accusers are dragged into the open. Nyxie could then choose to keep the names private and possibly try to make amends or she could try and sue their asses off. Either way, it's ugly.

(see next comment, too many characters)

**slinks off to continue and hopes Tabaqui doesn't want to kill her**

[realtsunamigirl.livejournal.com]

4) Nyxie *does* have the right to sue the accusers. There is an anonymous group of people out there who have presented supposedly irrefutable proof of events that she says never happened which has subsequently had a significant, negative effect on her life. Either these events occurred (for which the only irrefutable proof that could be provided would be video of the whole events, combined with an expert testifying that the video had not been tampered with) in which case she should hush up immediately or they didn't or have been exaggerated. Refer to point 3 re. having the right to names.

5) Wincon should be consulting their own lawyers, but quick, quick, quick. I am not victim-blaming; people come to the emotional place where they can face a negative experience and/or talk about it in their own time. However, if (and again the "if" only because at this point all I or it appears anyone has is hearsay) the events went down as is being described, all they have are the words of people, who have reported to being drunk at the time, about an incident that happened two years ago. Plus, we're dealing with a convention of people (of whom I consider myself a proud member) who are notorious even within the overall world of fandoms as being seriously sack o' hammers. We're the weirdoes that the weirdoes think are weird; credible witnesses or not, getting mundanes to see past our appearances would be virtually impossible. That part of the whole thing is just an even bigger nightmare waiting to unfold.

And everything rests on Nyxie's shoulders. She seems like a decent person, even though I only know her from her stories and a few exchanged comments. She has said that she refuses to be driven out of the fandom, which is a good sign, but I gotta say, if someone made serious allegations against my partner and then it got bruited about and everywhere I went it was there staring me down and I had no way to defend him because I had no way to confront the accusers? I'm not entirely sure I'd be too worried about how many innocent bystanders I took down with me.

I hope for sakes of Wincon and the women in question that she is a better and less vengeful person than I am.

/taking-up-too-much-of-your-lj-space

(sorry)

[tabaqui]

Thank you so much. I honestly can't imagine *not* owning my own words.

[tabaqui]

Yeah, it's a huge, ugly mess, isn't it? Just...rar.
Thanks, bb. :)

[tabaqui]

Thank you. :)

[tabaqui]

*smooch*. Thank you thank you.

[tabaqui]

I think you have a lot of good points, honestly. The real world is *not* fandom world, and the things that go down at events like Wincon or the SCA don't always go down in such a way as to be congruent with real-world law.

My sister was involved in the SCA for a while and oh, my. Such people, sometimes. Sheesh.

That being said, the actual facts of all this *are* very murky if you're outside looking in. We who weren't there *don't know*, and likely won't *ever* know.

I am, also? Posting you back privately, heh. :)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_beetle_/]

Ditto on the obliviousness. I try to stay out of wankery and drama, and thus have no idea what this is about.

But I'm sure whatever you said, you were just doing what you thought was right. You weren't out to hurt anyone and you don't traffic in gossip, drama, or asshat-ery.

I'm behind you whatever you do.

[tabaqui]

*smooches you*
Thanks, bay-bee.

It was a bit of an ugly mess - better you don't know, really!