Ah ha ha. See now, you're getting a very sinister, almost uncaring vibe from John. Interesting.
Not necessarily uncaring, but I think vengeance comes first. Even before love. He does what he thinks he has to do to keep them all alive, because three have a better chance of getting the demon than two or one.
He's a man who no longer thinks or plans or does with his heart. Small wonder.
To me he's not a puppetmaster. He *did* train Sam and Dean to be deadly - nearly unstoppable - and totally loyal. But he also knows they have self-will,
Not so sure about that myself. (Listen to me, back-talking the author . . . got bloody cheek, I have =)
I mean, I believe strongly in personal responsibility. There comes a point when you can't blame all the things you do on your folks or the way you were raised or your awful childhood. Within reason. It is entirely possible and common to warp a child so much that they'll never have "normal" response to the world. Self-will means nothing when you've had certain choices and tendencies ingrained in you. It's all well and good to say that if someone understands the difference between right and wrong, they should be held accountable for--killing puppies, let's say. But what if they were raised to believe that killing puppies was right and necessary? Even if they know the rest of the world really frowns on it, that person can only do what they know in their hearts is right. What they've been taught from infancy is good
We get our values, mainly, from our parents--parental-type figures. Self-will, free-will, is an illusion when you've been trained toward certain choices. When even now, people who are otherwise sane and reasonable, live there lives according to codes of conduct and belief that are thousands of years old, created by instincts that are tens of thousands of years out of date.
If self-will can be said to exist, it only exists in very narrow parameters. Or among remorseless psychopaths.
Um . . . yeah.
and that their hyper-protectivness is something *he* has to handle very carefully.
Yeah--I guess if he was feeling doubt-y, then there'd be no one to control them. The leader can't show fear to the rest of the pack, or he'd be leaving himself open to get torn apart.
And Sam and Dean gone rogue is a chilling thought.
They might think they're invulnerable - John knows their not.
And I don't think he cares, beyond getting the yellow-eyed demon. Not really. He died getting his vengeance, it's over for him. If Sam and Dean die with him, they die. If they don't, they live on, never being normal--having the things their mother, John's wife would have wanted for them. I think if Mary knew what he'd turn her sons into. . . .
Well, she wouldn't have rested easily, if at all.
And yeah - Sam's still a geek, still the research go-to guy, but all his soft spots are reserved for family.
Of course only to family, hence the telling of this story from Ellen's pov. She'd never see the softer side of them. No one outside the family would. No one will ever know them and they will never know anyone but each other.
God, that's kinda awful.
On the show, of the three, i could see Sam going over the edge the easiest. He's so damn *stubborn*.
And he tries so hard to be even and rational and fair and kind. The harder you try, the less naturally it comes to you. All that kindness and reason is a wall between the rest of the world and where Sam really lives.
Doesn't make him a bad person, but a person with many, many necessary layers and an enviable set of ethics.
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Not necessarily uncaring, but I think vengeance comes first. Even before love. He does what he thinks he has to do to keep them all alive, because three have a better chance of getting the demon than two or one.
He's a man who no longer thinks or plans or does with his heart. Small wonder.
To me he's not a puppetmaster. He *did* train Sam and Dean to be deadly - nearly unstoppable - and totally loyal. But he also knows they have self-will,
Not so sure about that myself. (Listen to me, back-talking the author . . . got bloody cheek, I have =)
I mean, I believe strongly in personal responsibility. There comes a point when you can't blame all the things you do on your folks or the way you were raised or your awful childhood. Within reason. It is entirely possible and common to warp a child so much that they'll never have "normal" response to the world. Self-will means nothing when you've had certain choices and tendencies ingrained in you. It's all well and good to say that if someone understands the difference between right and wrong, they should be held accountable for--killing puppies, let's say. But what if they were raised to believe that killing puppies was right and necessary? Even if they know the rest of the world really frowns on it, that person can only do what they know in their hearts is right. What they've been taught from infancy is good
We get our values, mainly, from our parents--parental-type figures. Self-will, free-will, is an illusion when you've been trained toward certain choices. When even now, people who are otherwise sane and reasonable, live there lives according to codes of conduct and belief that are thousands of years old, created by instincts that are tens of thousands of years out of date.
If self-will can be said to exist, it only exists in very narrow parameters. Or among remorseless psychopaths.
Um . . . yeah.
and that their hyper-protectivness is something *he* has to handle very carefully.
Yeah--I guess if he was feeling doubt-y, then there'd be no one to control them. The leader can't show fear to the rest of the pack, or he'd be leaving himself open to get torn apart.
And Sam and Dean gone rogue is a chilling thought.
They might think they're invulnerable - John knows their not.
And I don't think he cares, beyond getting the yellow-eyed demon. Not really. He died getting his vengeance, it's over for him. If Sam and Dean die with him, they die. If they don't, they live on, never being normal--having the things their mother, John's wife would have wanted for them. I think if Mary knew what he'd turn her sons into. . . .
Well, she wouldn't have rested easily, if at all.
And yeah - Sam's still a geek, still the research go-to guy, but all his soft spots are reserved for family.
Of course only to family, hence the telling of this story from Ellen's pov. She'd never see the softer side of them. No one outside the family would. No one will ever know them and they will never know anyone but each other.
God, that's kinda awful.
On the show, of the three, i could see Sam going over the edge the easiest. He's so damn *stubborn*.
And he tries so hard to be even and rational and fair and kind. The harder you try, the less naturally it comes to you. All that kindness and reason is a wall between the rest of the world and where Sam really lives.
Doesn't make him a bad person, but a person with many, many necessary layers and an enviable set of ethics.